if you want to do a sweatlodge its your decision,if you want to gove yourself a spiritname ,go ahead.its a free country.
but once you cross the boundary into the absurd and offensive its time to take a look at yourself.
nobody can ask you how would you feel if someone took something sacred from you and copied it,because you havent got a clue how you'd feel. remember,you are copying something thats special and sacred to the native people,something that isnt european,its native.so dont be surprised if there are natives that are resentful and bitter towards your"ceremony".

if whites do sweats then they do it without meaning,may as well go into a sauna and call it a sweatlodge,cause thats alll it is then

Actually, there is a sweat lodge tradition in many European cultures too -- though unfortunately most of the ritual and spiritual significance has been lost. Here is a quote from Medieval Folklore, by Carl LIndahl, John McNamara and John Lindow:

"Among the Balitic Finns, Sami, Russians, and Scandinavians the sauna served both practical and sacred purposes. ..Especially among the Baltic Finns and Great Russians, the sauna was associated fundamentally with concepts of the sacred. People turned to the sauna at key moments in the life cycle (e.g. birth, marriage, sickness, death) and at high points in the year (eg. Midsummer, Christmas). Healers combined the sauna's heat with forms of physical treatment, herbal cures, and mangic incantations. The Finnish term for sauna steam (Loyly) finds a cognate in the Hungarian term for soul or life force (lelek), implying the sacredness of ancient sauna concepts.

The Russian chronicler Nestor records the claim of two Russian witches in 1071 that humankind was created when God, after sweating in his heavenly sauna, dried himself with a piece of straw and threw it to the earth. The devil himself made it into a man, although the soul (associated with the divine sweat) remained eternal. [The reference to the devil probably suggests Christian influence here.]

The sauna also served as the site for the washing and final preparations of the corpse. Fourteenth and fifteenth-century Russian Orthodox clergy fought against peasant afuneral customs that included food, drink, and sauna offerings to the spirits of the dead. ..In Denmark...many wills from the period stipulate offering the poor food, ale, and sauna in memory of the deceased."

This book is looking at what was known in the middle ages, when ceremonies had already been radically altered by Christianity. Steam baths and sweat lodges are common to many cultures the world over, and you can bet that most of them originally had sacred meanings and practices, though these probably varied widely. Most European cultures had shamanic cultures at one time, too, and there are many traces of these beliefs and practices in spite of centuries of Christian efforts to wipe them out (in Anglo-Saxon poetry, for example). So people of European ancestry do have their own traditions that share some similarities with Native American traditions. Unfortunately, most of the content has been lost. As I see it, Euro-American people have every right to try to reclaim and renew these earlier pre-Christian traditions associated with purification and other aspects of spirituality -- the challenge is to find ways to rebuild sacred practices in a way that are not appropriations of Native spiritual practices and that respect the need that indigenous spiritual people have expressed to maintain their cultural integrity. Historical study can help us recover some of what has been lost, but it only goes so far.

Many North American indigenous peoples have retained their sweat lodge traditions. In cases where teachings have been lost, often the people in question have been able to learn from other groups whose traditions are still strong. I wonder if there is a RESPECTFUL way for non-Native people to ask for help from indigenous spiritual people in rebuilding this aspect of our own spiritual tradition. They may or may not be able to help us with this, given that their first priority is often restorative work within indigenous communities themselves. What we would be asking for is not to copy their particular spiritual practices, which only make sense within their culture, but to learn from their understandings of the deepest meanings and values of the sweat lodge, which we would then have to rethink in terms of our cultural traditions -- to help us reallign our values and our understanding of our place in the world.

I think it is a mistake to dismiss all non-indigenous interest in Native sweat lodge tradition as simply superficial and exploitative. Much of it is, because most North Americans lack any awareness of their own complicity in colonialism. Any spiritual exchange between us has to recognize the power relations and colonial processes and structures that we are all still enmeshed in. But I also believe that spiritual exchange, done in the right way, could help address the power relations.

Victoria Freeman

Thanks, I'll do that.

Two thoughts after my last posting:

When I said that Native spiritual practices only made sense within their own culture(s), I really meant could only be FULLY understood within their own cultures. Obviously some of it does translate, but the full significance of various elements can only be experienced and understood by people who share the culture.

The other thing in addition to values and meanings that non-indigenous people can learn from indigenous spiritual traditions is a variety of physical, aural and other techniques for getting more fully in touch with spirit, both inside and outside of ourselves (though I don't mean to draw a sharp distinction between inside and outside here). Some techniques can also be learned through yoga, tai chi, etc. Mainstream western spiritual traditions seem to have lost some of this knowledge or hidden it away within esoteric teachings available only to a few. Again, I think there is a reworking and regrounding that needs to happen, so that we are learning from what indigenous people do, but not copying and appropriating their specific cultural way of doing it. I'm not saying this is easy!

Hi, I have friends in Kearney NE USA that has a Inipi (sweat lodge) at their home. They have both natives and non-natives who participate. They faithfully follow traditions.

I agree with Samia that relationship is key. And I completely agree about the corrupting influence of money in a lot of New Age spirituality. I am dismayed by how hard it is for non-Aboriginal people to find ways of practicing spirituality in community without money being involved (I mean outside of the mainstream churches).

A long time ago I tried to invite myself to a sweat, with near disastrous consequences to my friendship with Dorothy Christian, now moderator of this forum! So the first thing I learned from the sweat lodge was that I needed to understand more about what Aboriginal people meant when they talked about respect.

I myself have been in a sweatlodge only once in my life, and in that case I was invited. The circumstances and the place were extremely meaningful to me as it was on the territory of a First Nation where my grandfather had been involved with the residential school. The man who invited me to the sweat was a relative of the man who was chief of the First Nation when my grandfather was there and we knew our ancestors had had dealings with each other. I had gotten to know him while researching my book, which was all about understanding my connection to colonialism and the actions of my ancestors, and there had been a genuine heart to heart connection between us as we talked about that history. I think there was healing that we both needed that led to his inviting me and I think what happened was good for all three of the people who attended the sweat.

But after the sweat a friend was driving me home and we happened to stop in somewhere on the reserve and talk to a friend of his who was an elder. When he heard who I had done the sweat with he commented that I shouldn't just do a sweat with the first person who asked me -- that this person was not a good person to do a sweat with and that there were other people who would be better. This confused and upset me, because I had just had a very important experience, which it seemed the elder was negating. It wasn't clear to me if he was disparaging the person who had invited me because of his personal spiritual failings or because he belonged to a different medicine society. This experience taught me that involvement in a community's spiritual practices is not a simple matter if you are an outsider and don't understand the dynamics within the community.

In spite of what the elder said, I'm glad I had that opportunity to begin to learn about the sweat and do that particular piece of healing with that particular person in that particular place. But I have no idea if I will be involved in further sweats or not -- I'm not seeking out that ceremony for myself. If it comes to me again it will be a matter of the right circumstances and right people.

For me, as a non-Aboriginal person, my task is to discover and rebuild an authentic and non-exploitative spirituality that allows me to connect with people of all traditions and guides me in ethical relationships with them and with all creation. I think the teachings I've received related to the sweatlodge (both inside and out of it) have helped me move a little further along that path but have also made it clear to me that involvement with the sweat lodge is not something to be trifled with.

I just wanted to post a link to an article by Jurgen Kremer (mentioned by Nadoway above) on how people of European ancestry can ethically connect to indigeneity.

http://www.noetic.org/publications/review/issue33/main.cfm?page=r33_Krem...

I had the pleasure of being invited to a sweat by my fellow students a few years ago. I had my thoughts, of it being a sacred thing in the native culture. The ones that had invited me, did so, that I could experience what they did for their beliefs. Two of the students guided me through the whole process, explaining the different things as they happened.
I was very impressed. Later I was asked how I felt about the whole process,and the only thing I could say, was, it was an unbelievable experience.Later I was asked if there was anything that compared to it.
My answer was given quite a few days later. The only comparison I could think of was, that it was likening to a "christian" baptism.
Though it was at a place that done it for profit, my guides made sure I knew the reasons for all the things that went on. Different people use the sweats for their own healing, and that should be respected at all times.
The ones that do it for profit, have lost the respect of what it signifies.
I am of ? native blood, and have a true respect for all cultures.
As with any religion, people should have more respect for the ceremonies, and maybe be made aware of what the true meaning is to the people that do practice it.With this, I would like to thank the people who guided me through everything as it was an experience I will never forget.

My personal opinion on who should run sweat lodge ceremonies would have to be that Caucasian people can run them, but it will not have the same effect as it would if the teacher was indian. Not to be racist or anything, but the power and healing you get from the indian teacher is different and in may ways, more meaningful.

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I used to live in Ontario. Over there I attended a few sweats with some really great people. Now that I'm out here in British Columbia I'm feeling a little overwhelmed. I want to get back into participating and heard of an oppertunity.

I e-mailed my friend about it (She is Ojibwe) and she was totaly frieked out at the fact that the sweat I was going to attend didn't have a feast. She also told me that it is not only disrespectful, but extrodinarily dangerous to run a fake lodge. She urged me to figure out more before I crawled in. And if I heard the name Harley Swiftdeer to turn around and run!

So what are the thoughts. Is this lodge legit? How can one tell? Nobody has ever accused me of being smart, and I'm too naive and can easily be taken in. In the lodge at home I fealt safe and secure. I'd like to revisit that.

I couldn't agree more. I just don't want to crawl into a lodge with someone who doesn't know how to properly choose the grandfathers.

Hmmmm..... never had a sweat or been in a sweat lodge in my life and I'm Ojibway. Of course not all native people believe in sweat lodges either. Mainly because sweat lodges are recent for most first nations people of this century. Example the Ojibways people never wore bonettes like the plains indians nor did we have hogans or teepees to live in. Most Ojibways lived in long houses like the Hurons and depending on what region you lived in. So sweat lodges are recent and not all first nations practice sweats untill the later half of this century.

In my observation this is why there is so much infighting about sweats lodge leadership. Because within the last half century First Nations cultures have crossed each others boundries that it's just one big gigantic culture. Not because we like too but because we we're forced to and that came with the creations of reservations and disenfranchisement. So it's not who shouild run it is but how we should run it?

For those who may still come to this posting. I had trepidations about a lodge. But went.

It was great. Great people running it. Great people attending. I fealt amazing afterwards. Looking forward to going back.

There are many posts here, which to me betray the uncertainty that a lot of Aboriginal people share concerning Aboriginal ceremonialism. But, what I think is really missing is the underlying values of the spirituality. It is one thing to learn about how you conduct yourself in a ceremony. But the more important lessons are those learned in the contemplation about why the ceremonies are conducted the way they are. From what I have been taught, and learned, we as individuals do not have any special right to criticise another?s sincere attempt to learn. The point of Life is, after all, to learn and convey that knowledge to our future generations. As individuals, we are all obligated to convey our knowledge to others. Why, after all, are we told to respect our Elders for their knowledge? Well, surprise... just as they are obligated to pass on their knowledge, so too are we inclined to pass on our knowledge throughout our lives.

Knowledge about our environment is the most important thing in life. This is why there was a strong obligation on everyone to learn for themselves. So, don?t be so harsh on those willing to learn. One should always remember that they once had to learn as well. I can?t generalize about any reluctance to share knowledge. Nor for any reasons why people claim that there is only one way of doing something. But I do know that when things are treated with too much reverence conflict over beliefs is generally an end result. My Spirituality begs for humility in such matters. What others perceive and believe is of their own choosing. I was put here to fulfil my obligations to the Creator to be respectful and mindful of my environment. And that includes other people, regardless of their beliefs. My obligations are also what beings me to this thread.

The dominant religions of today have in the past been very aggressive in indoctrinating others to their beliefs. These religions have beliefs which insist that there is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. My Saulteaux Spirituality is not like that, simply because of my obligations to respect the beliefs and practices of others. When we begin to establish a right way and a wrong way of doing things then we are transforming our spirituality into a religious based set of beliefs. Inevitably dogma would set in. As, in many respects, I believe it has.

If you want to have a sweat lodge? That?s you prerogative. If you want to learn about how someone uses a sweat lodge? Then it?s good that you asked. For my part though, although I?ve been a door keeper at several sweats, sweat lodges are not a part of my personal spirituality. The Saulteaux have only recently (past couple hundred years) taken up the practice. But from what I?ve been taught and learned the sweat lodge is intended less for personal benefit and more about self sacrifice and purification when asking for aid and advise in the aid and benefit of someone else or others. But, as you might well have guessed, other people will have differing intentions concerning the role of sweat lodges.

Because of my peripheral involvement in sweats I would only be able to provide a cursory description. Sweats are held at certain times, following or preceding other ceremonies for example. But really, don?t rely on just one source. Because, no one person can tell you everything about sweat lodges. And no single Elder will know everything about everything either.

I believe I've made my points earlier in this post. But, as for a last piece of advice Lynne Phillips, I'd say keep seeking out knowledge from different places and people but most importantly keep asking if you want to learn more. And to those who collect and horde, buy and sell your knowledge I should remind you that the knowledge you keep doesn?t belong to you. It belongs to time and the generations to come.

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I believe that if you have a true spiritual connection to the creator and you have a true spiritual teacher who teaches you about the Lodge and you are truly conducting the lodge to help others then you are able to conduct lodges. When I mentioned getting the ok from a teacher this means you must have the language (Native) to conduct or call in the spirits and bring everyone back. You also have to remember that everyone in that lodge their life is in your hands and you are truly responsible. Someone could get hurt if the lodge is not done properly. So be careful and think twice about conducting the lodge. It is not fame and fortune or being popular or respected or looked up too. It is spiritual work done through the Creator and spirits.